FIRE Community Guest Interview #18 – French Expats Growing Their Real Estate Empire in the US and France

Here we are again with our next installment of the FIRE Community Guest Interview Series!

For anyone new here, this interview series will cover people within the FIRE community who are on their way to becoming financially independent, have already reached financial independence, or who have retired early. If you are reading this and you are financially independent, retired early, or close to reaching these major financial milestones, please reach out to the Modern Fimily! You can check out the previous FIRE Community Guest Interviews here.

Today, we have the pleasure of having Sarah join us from the States. Sarah has French roots as she is a French expat living in the US and her family’s long term plan is to move back to France someday so they have an international approach to their investments. Sarah is a mom to two kiddos, takes an eco-friendly approach when it comes to consumption, and has a family net worth very similar to ours.  

I hope you appreciate these responses as much as I do and hope you can relate to these guest interviews in some sense to see that there is no cookie-cutter way to FI. If you have any follow up questions or would like to get in touch with Sarah, please leave a comment on this post or reach out to her on her Instagram account @myown_terms. Without further ado, take it away Sarah!

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1. Can you give us a little background of who you are, what you do, and how you became interested in personal finance? How did you discover the idea of financial independence?

Gosh – Who am I?! You’re starting with the toughest question! 🙂 I had to think hard on that one… what really defines me? Am I a woman in my mid-thirties? Am I a working mom? Am I a french ‘expat’ (now Green Card holder!) living in the US? Am I a wife and mother of 2 kiddos (3 and 1 year olds)? A white person with white privileges I’m learning more about? Am I an only child who was taught the value of money by her parents and who was also a natural saver? Am I a feminist? Am I an aspiring environmentalist? A minimalism and slow life admirer? An HR professional?  All of it!

I think I’ve always been interested in personal finance, somehow. As a child and then a teenager and young adult, I always had a side job and always had money saved to buy the things I wanted. In 2008 I was a student and cash-flowed a trip to Bali. My parents were also always generous in giving me a monthly allowance throughout my studies, which I would always manage well. I have never had debts (other than mortgage). Have always cash-flowed used cars and international travels. 

One of the first thing my (then) boy friend (and now hubby) did in our relationship was to open a joint account. He was the driving force. I had never thought I would do that, as an independent woman I wanted to have my own money. But I went along and I’m glad I did. It set us up for a lot of simplicity (he makes more than I do, but also spends more so I don’t feel bad 🙂 as we pay everything from that account and everything we own we own it together. We got married and moved the the US shortly early in our relationship and after 3 years of DINK (dual income no kid) we had saved quite a bit of money without really being intentional about it. Just making good income + expat housing allowance + yearly home leave trip paid for, while working lots of hours so not a lot of time to spend! (And my nature of being a saver). So we decided this money should be working for us and invested in SCPI in France (kind of REITs, but not exactly). A few months later we came across a documentary showing a french woman in her thirties who was financially independent thanks to her rental properties. I read her book. We started investing in real estate. A few months later, we came across another documentary where Tanja Hester and others were talking about the FIRE movement. All along, we’ve read and learnt more and more about financial independence and have refined our own fire plans (we have a spreadsheet with a million tabs showing each iteration of our plans/projections).

2. When in your journey did you realize financial independence was actually possible?  Was that the original goal at the beginning?

Somewhere between that first and second documentary! Our beliefs and plans have been evolving so much that it is hard to select a single moment but really these TV moments have been very impactful in our journey. We were seeing people who had done that, something that before we had never imagined was possible! 

3. To help put things into context, if you are comfortable sharing some numbers, what is your savings rate, FIRE number, net worth, salary, how many hours a week do you work, etc?  How long have you been working towards financial independence and where are you today?

Starting with the easy numbers, we both work full time at Manager levels in a big international company (so somewhere between 40 and 50 hours/week each, where I’m probably closer to 40 and hubby closer to 50).

We plan to retire in France where our families are and so our FIRE goal is in euro and because it isn’t in index funds, our reference is in gross income/year: FIRE would be 80k euros per year (without a paid off house), and FAT FIRE would be either 80k with a paid house or 100k without. Note we are basing that number on a family of 5 (while we have 2 kiddos for now… just in case ;-). Will we quit at FIRE level or push through until FAT FIRE… that is the question!

We share our net worth openly on my Instagram account, currently we are at $1.6M for the family. Our saving rate is consistently above 50% (2020 was around 65%), and the bulk of our expenses ($4200/month) is mortgage and daycare.

4. Do you feel deprived?  Do you feel like you are sacrificing and missing out on life?  How would you say your mindset has shifted throughout your FI journey?

I don’t! Because I’m a natural saver, because I hate waste, because I’m laser focused on our goal. But I’m also too extreme and I recognize it, I could go years without doing something special, going on a trip, eating some type of food or whatever would save us more money. Hubby is a good balance for that, although he is getting more and more like me and we have to watch that to make sure we balance things out for our family and our relationship and, although there are million fun and extraordinary things you can do without spending money, splurge a little sometimes!

The great thing is that during the last year we have really made breakthrough changes in our life that have durably lowered our expenses (especially for groceries). Before, we would ALWAYS be over our weekly budget of $400 so I would constantly be annoyed when spending. And now, we very often are within budget so I’m way more relaxed when we eat out for instance – as long as we stay within that budget of course! 🙂

5. What do you spend your money on and what don’t you spend your money on? What brings you happiness and joy? How much money do these things cost?

We spend money on:

• Organic and grass-fed / pasture raised, ideally local food: almost always more expensive than conventional options and sometimes significantly but these are things we value for our health, for the environment and/or for the animal wellbeing.

• Eco-friendly alternatives (although for most things, eco-friendly means sustainable and means less spending in the long run).

• At least one trip back “home” per year and vacation in general: we have started travel hacking for about a year now so will be significantly reduced next time as we usually stay with our families and friends so no accommodation costs. We recently spent about $5,000 on a trip to Punta Cana that we funded through several weeks of spending less than our weekly budget and generating side income over the expected $200/month. We did this so that it was completely guilt free because it was not impacting our financial goals. It was super motivating! 

• Also, hubby spends on books and Spanish ham!

6. What are some of the more unique/uncommon ways you’ve cut down costs?

We of course do the typical: owning used (and old!) cars, living in a house several times cheaper than what we could afford, buying second hand a lot, re-evaluating our providers (insurance, internet etc) to compare rates, travel hacking, etc. I think where we are probably more unique is that we are really low maintenance. I almost never buy makeup, jewelry, new clothes, and usually we could care less about “stuff”. We also make tons of things from scratch (our bread, burger buns, tomato sauce, yogurts, granola, cakes, mustard, and just meals in general but also I make my own shampoo now!). We garden, and we have made lots of eco-friendlier transitions: cloth diapers and washcloths, soapberries for laundry, lots of tips to avoid food waste, cloth towels and napkins, air drying (when feasible outside only!). 

As mentioned above, we have significantly cut our groceries expenses (by 2!) by 1) stretching time between grocery hauls (not going every weekend by default anymore but instead being more creating with what we have, so avoiding food waste) 2) having a running list where we capture what we run out of, and then we add what we need based on meal planning 3) comparing prices between stores 4) buying in bulk when we can (ex: I order our bread flour by 50lbs)

7. Do you use a budget?  Do you track your expenses? Do you track your net worth? If so, how often do you update these?

I’m a spreadsheet nerd! I track every cent spent and whether we are within our $400 every week, then our savings rate monthly. Also have been tracking Net Worth monthly for the last 6 months probably and I wish I had started sooner because it is really cool to see it grow!

8. I know you are very eco-conscious.  How would you say sustainability, minimalism, and FI are intertwined?

It’s like a virtuous circle! Add slow life to the list and here is what I aspire to! Each brings meaning to and enables the other. It really goes back to what is essential: TIME. Money is just an enabler in our story, we have no desire to be rich because we know we don’t need much, we don’t want to accumulate “stuff” that will add stress into our life instead of joy. What we want is to be with our kids while they grow (free, no impact to environment, no “stuff” needed), run/hike outside (same), read books, grow our food, cook, really be in the moment (watch a animal, smell the freshly cut grass, listen to a river flow, feel the air, touch a tree, hug each other,…). That probably sounds idealistic but I believe there is no other truth and our modern consumerist over active lives are insane (literally, lack of sanity). 

9. As a FI member living in the US, are there any pros to living in America specifically that have helped you along your journey?  Conversely, any cons? 

Mostly pros since we are still there 🙂 We could never save and invest that much money back in France, and would not have the career opportunities we have had. In general, life here is also more convenient (stores are open all the time, you can usually pick your daycare vs being on a waiting list for months, large roads, parking spots everywhere, people and businesses are service oriented, administrative activities can usually be done online and efficiently (I’ll tell you another day about how much easier and quicker it is to buy real estate in the US vs France!!)

Only con really is distance with our families, especially since we have kids. I feel bad for taking grandparents/grandkids time away from these two generations! And it’s obviously been really bad with Covid as we haven’t gone back for over 1.5 years so they haven’t met our baby daughter.

10. What is your investment strategy? Do you invest in index funds, dividend stocks, real estate, other businesses, etc.?  Has your investment strategy changed over the years? 

We started with the french real estate shares SCPI (remember, like REITs but not really), then massively invested in rental properties (we have 9 now, including 7 apartments in France and 2 single-family here in the US). We also have our 401k’s where we invested in low fee index funds (have contributed to the employer match, never maxed out), and a whole life insurance (I know – everybody in the FIRE community is screaming right now!) that we are going to be borrowing from as one of our sources of passive income. Our strategy has been evolving consistently as we learn things, run numbers etc. We are now at a point where we have put everything in place and “just” have to pay off to become financially free. We are focusing on our US mortgages first (higher rates) and paid off our first purchased property in December 2020. It has been SO nice to receive our first truly passive income and we are on a roll to keep adding to it.

11. Do you take advantage of tax advantaged accounts offered to you?  If so, which ones and how so?  Do you have a game plan to be able to withdraw from these funds when the time comes? 

We have an HSA that we use for our medical expenses for that year (not investing that money and not letting sit because we won’t be retiring in the US), a dependent care FSA for daycare and our 401k. We have “only” been contributing to the employer match because of the restrictions around withdrawals before age 59.5 (10% penalty). Our goal is really to retire while the kids are still kids so we want to put all the money possible towards accelerating that. Depending on our scenarios (FIRE or FAT FIRE) and therefore how many years we keep working, we might or might not withdraw part of our 401k to complement income until we start borrowing from whole life insurance in 2031 and/or as downpayment for a house.

12. Speaking of withdrawals, what is the withdrawal rate you plan to use when you withdraw from your portfolio?  Are you a fan of the “4% rule” or something else?  Why?

Not applicable in our case! 🙂 If it was, my guess is we would probably target a 3.5% or even 3% to be on the safe side, because to us it isn’t because the market has always gone up that it will continue that way forever. Global warming is “new” and its impacts aren’t fully known yet but we think there will be areas no human can live in anymore (due to heat, flooding, erosion, etc), there will be lots of immigration to certain zones as a result. We believe that at some point, degrowth will be inevitable (whether it is “chosen” by humans or forced). 

Also we believe that the fact that more and more people invest passively in index funds has an impact on the market itself (there are articles out there to explain that way better than I would!).

13. How has being an immigrant impacted your FI journey?  I know you have some real estate back in France while living in the US.  How has that process been?  Are there any hurdles to being French expats living in the States? 

Being an immigrant has impacted our journey in many ways I believe. It has accelerated it due to our saving rate as explained before. I also think the fact we are away from our family/friends/the society in which we grew up, has given our brains more freedom :-). We have been able to dream, make plans etc towards financial independence without somebody telling us right away how crazy/impossible this is. We have of course shared our plans with our parents, at different degrees depending on which parent it is, but it was only once we already were convinced this was our path. So some of their reactions (some laughing, some being scared for us), did not affect us and our plans.

As far as Real Estate: quite a process for sure! Mainly the first purchase(s). It took us a lot of time to find a lender. We had gone “all in” in 2017, deciding to move forward with 3 apartments that needed significant rehabs. The company we were contracting was managing it all (turnkey type), and for the projections to actually work, we needed the rehab to be financed as well. Except no bank accepted us because we live in the US. So we ended up having to cash flow all the rehab work, furniture (these 3 are furnished), closing costs + 20% down payment. Needless to say 1) it was no longer a good investment from an ROI perspective 2) we were extremely fortunate we could absorb this additional cost without going broke. We didn’t know better, went with it, and in the end we also aren’t anywhere close to the projected (by that company) rents. BAD investments, LOTS of mistakes. Would we do it differently knowing what we know today? ABSOLUTELY! Do we have regrets? No. We did something. We took actions towards our future selves. We started the motion. And now, although not the best investments for sure, we still have 3 apartments that are around 40% paid off and on which we have less than 7 year of mortgage to go.

Back to the process of buying real estate in France from the US: everything over there is slower and more complicated. Takes forever to close. Takes lots of follow up to get people to respond. We bought 3 properties in the US within 6 months and I can tell you, it was MUCH easier and headache free.

In general also, it is complicated to open (or even keep sometimes) a bank account in Europe when you live in the US. IRS has scared everyone off! 🙂

And yes, we do plan to go back there to retire mainly because that is where our families are and that we look forward to being able to visit the different french regions, eat the good food and also go to Spain and Italy easily as we both love these countries. The authenticity, culture and history there is really cool.

14. How does life in the US compare to life back in France?  

So I mentioned above how everything is more convenient and efficient here in the US. People are also very nice, helpful, they mind their own business in general. In France, there is more “conflict” (not always in a bad way) in general. People love to complain, to debate, to judge what other people do, etc. Consumerism and materialism are stronger in the US, although I’m not sure France has been evolving in the right (to me) direction.

And as far as food… no comments 🙂 Finer there for sure, and probably healthier too. There tend to be more fat/salt/sugar and less variety in the food we find/buy here. Like for instance the food that is provided at daycare/school for kids is soooo different. In the US sometimes you feel like the only vegetables that exist are like carrots, zucchinis, peas, potatoes and green beans 🙂 There are so many more!!

15. What are your post-FIRE thoughts/plans regarding health coverage?  As a reference, what do you currently pay annually or monthly for health related costs (be it insurance, co-pays, deductibles, etc.)? What do you estimate your post-FIRE health costs to be per year?

Ugh that is a good question but I don’t have a firm answer just yet. In France, health insurance is part of social security and it isn’t totally clear to me what our options will be (depending on if we have a small business for instance). We projected 500 euros/month for now but this will need to be refined as we get closer and study more. 

We currently have insurance through our employer. We have a fairly high deductible plan with an HSA and pay less than $200/month for medical, dental and vision for the family.

16. As a parent, have you found that having children has greatly delayed your timeline to FIRE?  How much money have you spent on your children per year (per child)?  What were some of the bigger costs that were worth it and what were some of the bigger costs that were not worth it?  Do you have a 529 account open for their post-secondary education?

I mean… our biggest expense is our kids. We pay around $2700/month just in daycare. So probably yes it has delayed us in some ways but at the same time, they’ve always been part of the “plan” and our motivation to get to FIRE has increased since they were born. Our WHY has gotten bigger and stronger and we have therefore taken more aggressive steps towards it. 

In terms of spendings, we have done better with #2. For our son we did disposable diapers and wipes until he was 2.5 yr old before we transitioned to cloth at the same time we did for our 6 month old daughter. I also breastfed my daughter longer thanks to work from home so we’ll likely skip the formula costs. Labor and delivery probably around $3500-$4000 out of pocket each. We also spend money in IUIs and fertility related exams to conceive them (but our plan was very generous with these). Clothing for both has been, for the most part, hand-me-downs. More details on one of my IG posts on random kids related items (usually 2nd hand) we have purchased and their cost!

No 529, nope. To be honest, because we are planning on moving back to Europe we haven’t even looked into how these work. And the idea is that putting all our money towards building these assets will allow us to spend lots of time with them while they grow up and will eventually be theirs.

17. If you could go back in time and change things, what would you have done differently?

I’m a very forward thinking person so I don’t carry regrets. Hubby is different. For instance, out of the many mistakes we have made throughout our journey is that at the beginning of Covid we had money we had to withdraw from a pension fund and he had the brilliant idea to invest in oil. At first, we had talked about selling after like 6 months (the time we initially thought the pandemic/crisis would last… LOL). We invested 120k (!!) and it quickly went up to $140ish. We debated about selling at that point but decided not to as we were supposed to be in it for longer and were hopeful it was going to go up. Then it went down to like half, and hubby was freaking out and telling me to sell. At that point we committed to never do that again, never try to be the smartest in the block anymore and never speculate again. But still had to align on our exit strategy. Eventually, we ran some numbers and decided that whenever it would be back to a number that would allow us to pay off our first rental property, we would sell. Which we did (well, a little lower than this actually but that is just a detail). Also, as I’m typing this, I am waiting for a Turo guest (renting our car is our main side hustle) who was supposed to return the car several hours ago. Worst case it’s been stolen or in an accident. Best case I have lost precious hours of sleep. 

So yeah, many mistakes along the way that have for sure delayed us but we’ve learnt a lot from them so not wishing I could re-write things.

18. Has discovering financial independence changed how you view your job and life overall? 

Totally! A lot of my friends are going through a sort of mid-life (or at least mid-thirties) crisis, challenging why they do what they do and wondering if it is all worth it. I often tell hubby I’d be on the same boat if we didn’t have our FIRE plans. Don’t get me wrong, I like my current job, I am never bored, am compensated fairly well, like my coworkers and my boss. But if we didn’t have our mid-term plans to retire early, I would not be okay with dedicating as much time and brain space to work as we do today if we had to keep doing it until we are 65+ and then what? Our kids are grown up and our parents have passed or are too old to enjoy life with us? 

I highly respect those who take the Coast or Slow FIRE road but every time we consider these other options (make significant changes to our life now towards what we want our FIRE life to be, while delaying when we get to retire), we agree that this isn’t our path. We want to be work optional and we want it to happen as quickly as possible. We would not do ANYTHING to accelerate, which means we would not accept jobs with long commute or lots of travel for instance even if it meant more money (unless it was for a very short period of time and very significant amount of money :-)). Although we know work takes more space than it ideally should, we are also aware that we are really lucky and spend more time with our kids than the majority of working parents we know. 

19. Have you come out of the FIRE closet yet? Meaning, do your friends, family, co-workers etc. know about your financial independence goals?  If so, how did you bring it up and what were their reactions?  If not, why not?  Why do you struggle with this conversation and why do you feel that money is such a taboo topic?  

Haha the “FIRE closet” 🙂 Yes, we have come out for the most part. Our parents know, at different levels of details and they probably all doubt we are going to actually make it (either actually get to a passive income that would be sufficient for support our family for the rest of our lives, or that we will have the guts/desire to actually quit our well paid and promising careers). Some friends we have told everything, including some numbers to some, and other friends we have told very little. Most laugh when we mention it, mostly because we’ve been telling them we would come back to France soon for a long time now and they don’t believe us anymore 🙂 Others have said they would get bored without work. I respect that opinion, but do think it is an evidence of alienation. Some people, and I don’t blame them because that’s all most know, can’t even picture a life without work which is crazy when you think big picture. We’re so into it every day we don’t even question it. But WTF are we all doing? Rat racing for years, counting the days until the weekend, counting the weeks until the next vacation, and then wondering where our time has gone. 

It is pretty cool because we have friends (she was actually our co-worker and her and her husband became our close friends) are now on their own path to FIRE after hearing about our plans. At the time we had the same, completely messed up, boss and it really motivated us all because you never know who your next F* up boss will be and you need your F* you money to say bye-bye! With them, we definitely share more details on our journey. They have had a different approach, focusing on an online business they launched and they are absolutely killing it! 

20. What pieces of advice would you suggest to someone who is just starting out or someone who is working toward reaching financial independence? 

The best day to start the journey was the day you started to make money. The second best day is today! Just get started, action is what matters. You are going to make mistakes, and that is okay because you will learn from them. Obviously I’m not recommending to just go do crazy things with your money without studying but 1) get your 401k to employer match TODAY 2) track all of your expenses, identify opportunities to decrease, combine, negotiate,… THE NEXT DAY 3) Define an amount you are going to save on each pay check (pay yourself first) and make it automatically hit your savings on pay day. THE DAY AFTER 4) then define your strategy, how can you increase your saving rate (by reducing expenses but also, absolutely, because “money is unlimited” (per Financial Freedom book), increasing your income), how/where you will invest these savings, what your ideal life is and how you can get there. Early retirement isn’t necessary the answer for all. You might be happier with a part time job now than no job in 10-15 years. No one size fits all. And track progress, celebrate the little milestones!

21. What does the word ‘success’ mean to you?

Might sound cheesy but it means happiness to me. It means I feel good about what I’m doing with the little time that my one life has allocated me. That hubby and kids are happy, that we enjoy our time together. I’m not necessarily wanting to spend much more time with the kids. I will enjoy having time for myself, time alone with hubby etc to do other things. But I want that time to really be WITH them, interacting, observing, listening, playing, singing, learning,.. Instead of getting all of the household stuff done while they are there as it often happens. When I am work optional, I want to learn new skills, I want my brain to have time to think and have new ideas like I did during my second maternity leave. 

22. Are there any books, blogs, or podcasts that you would recommend for our readers to check out?  

Tanja Hester’s blog (“Our Next Life”) and book (“Work Optional”), “Quit Like a Millionaire” book, “ChooseFI” podcast and local groups (we joined the one in my area and went to a meet up before Covid, it was really nice to meet FIRE community folks around me and super helpful for local tips), “Afford Anything” podcast and the “Purple Life” blog. I have to say though, with work from home I have not been listening to podcasts in a while and the last book I read was during my maternity leave. So most of the resources I check out nowadays are Instagram accounts – Modern Flmily being one of them! 😉

23. How can people get in contact with you? 

Through my IG account! @myown_terms

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Thank you so much Sarah for tackling our interview questions! So much good info in here! I swear I would have answered MANY of these questions similar to you . My highlight from today’s interview is this quote in regards to their mistake with their French rental properties: “Do we have regrets? No. We did something. We took actions towards our future selves. We started the motion.“

There is SOOOO MUCCCHHHH amazing information in this interview, I hope you all were able to take some action items from these responses.  As Sarah, and all our previous interviewees, demonstrate – there is no cookie cutter way to FI.  Clearly, they are rocking it and it’s so motivating to watch their progress.

Thank you again Sarah for being a part of our FIRE Community Guest Interview Series.  In next month’s interview, we jump back to Western Canada with a fellow Albertan momma who’s building a real estate empire.

Did you enjoy this interview? Any additional questions for Sarah? Thanks for tuning in and check back next month for the next interview.

We love highlighting other members of the FI community. Please contact us if you’d like to be a part of the FIRE Community Guest Interview series and we’ll see if we’re a good fit!

And in case you wanted to read the previous interviews that make up our FIRE Community Guest Interview Series, here you go!

• FIRE Community Guest Interview # 1 – Empowerment Through FIRE
• FIRE Community Guest Interview # 2 – We Quit Our Jobs To Retire Early & Travel The World
• FIRE Community Guest Interview # 3 – Dividend Investor Reached FI By Living An Intentional Life
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #4 – Pursuing FIRE With Multiple Passive Income Streams in Australia
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #5 – Driving to FIRE Through RV Living
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #6 – From High School Drop Out to Retired at 35
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #7 – Medical Professional Family With 3 Kiddos In The Pursuit of FIRE 
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #8 – Calculated Engineer Family Utilizing Geo-Arbitrage to Reach FI
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #9 – Lessons from a Fimigrant – Let Experience Be Your Teacher
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #10 – From Entrepreneur Making $36,000 to Multi-Millionaire In His 30s
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #11 – Hybrid Dividend and Index Investor Who’s Mastering the FI Mindset
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #12 – Proving Financial Independence Is Possible With Kids In A High Cost of Living Area
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #13 – Making An Impact On The Way To FI
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #14 – Badass Momma Knows Her Worth And Became A Millionaire At 36
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #15 – PhD Couple Reached FI at 40
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #16 – Mindful Minimalist Family
• FIRE Community Guest Interview #17 – FIWOOT: Financial Independence Work On Own Terms

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